New Interview with Dr. Lloyd-Jones Found
Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones’s Lifelong Desire for Revival
This article first appeared in the Evangelical Magazine of Wales Vol.14 Number 2, published by the Evangelical Movement of Wales in April 1975. It is reproduced here with permission:
"75 YEARS ON"
In 1950 "Y Cylchgrawn Efengylaidd" published an interview with Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Recently that same magazine carried a further interview between Dr. Lloyd-Jones and J. Elwyn Davies, General Secretary of the Evangelical Movement of Wales. We are pleased to print a translation of this recent interview.
J. Elwyn Davies: Exactly 25 years have passed since you wrote to the January issue of the Cylchgrawn Efengylaidd in 1950. Your greatest desire at that time was to see the church of God experiencing a great revival. I quote your words:
'For the Church, my greatest desire is that she should experience a great revival in 1950. Who can not but grieve to see Zion powerless and poverty-stricken and so unworthy of her great Lord and Master? What can be more pitiful than to see the Body of Christ reduced to no more than a number of committees and conferences without the Spirit and without power . . . . Oh to see Christians on their knees in repentance and earnest prayer that God should visit us once again in His grace!'
A quarter of a century is a long time, and we have not experienced anything like a powerful revival in that time. Would it be true to say that you are disappointed that this has not as yet taken place?
Dr. D. M. Lloyd-Jones: Well, I wonder whether the word 'disappointed' is the right word here. I lament the fact. And of course my great desire, not only during the last 25 years but also during the previous quarter century, was to see a great and powerful revival. I never suspected I was destined to remain for 40 years in the wilderness. I was confident that we would have seen a great revival before now. To that extent, perhaps, one can speak of disappointment. But in this world one learns to realize that we are entirely in the hands of God, and that we must be content with this, and acknowledge that revival in the last resort is a matter for His sovereign will.
J.E.D.: I know that it is difficult to interpret the ways of God. Our thoughts are not His thoughts. And yet we find ourselves led of the Lord from day to day from year to year, and to a certain extent we receive a degree of understanding of His will for us, and of the significance of certain events. Looking back over the last 25 years or so, would you say that certain things had to take place first, as it were, before we could experience the powerful workings of the Spirit? In other words, can we encourage ourselves that, although there has not been a revival, some things of real importance have happened, and persuade for that reason we are that much nearer a revival?
Dr. D.M.L-J: Well, this of course raises an important question. It is an old question: that is, the relationship between reformation on the one hand and a revival or an awakening on the other. It is an extremely complicated subject. I would be prepared to say on the whole, judging by history, that reformation comes before an awakening or a revival. It need not be so, but I think that this is what we see quite clearly in the history of the Church over the centuries.
Well now, to come to the last 25 years. A number of things have happened, and specially in England and evangelical campaigns held especially in England and the United States. I have been saying over the years that these campaigns are diverting attention from the need for a revival and a spiritual awakening. In other words, I am almost prepared to say that we are not yet ready for a revival because the majority, even of evangelicals, seem to be still clinging to the idea that we can fulfill the need by our own campaigns and by our own efforts. I think I understand why God withholds revival, as it were. It is in order to bring us to our knees. We must come to see clearly that we can do nothing of ourselves, and that we are entirely dependent on God. I feel that this is part of the explanation of what has happened during this last quarter century.
Then on the other hand, it is important not to despise 'the day of small things'. A number of things have taken place, have they not? I believe that we can claim that a reformation, in the sense of gaining a clearer grasp of the great doctrines, has and is taking place. And if this is a preliminary to revival, well then, this time has not been lost. Now I think that the 1904-5 revival sheds some light on this. What was deficient in that revival—there is no doubt about it—was the fact that there was such a wide gap between the revival itself and the belief of the churches. You must have a basis on which to build. You must have something which is going to take hold of this great power in order to safeguard it and keep it for the future. Therefore, I would say that in these last years there has been a preparation and that it is going on at present. But the danger then, of course, is to depend on this alone. Just as some trust to their own capabilities—the campaigns and their organisation and so on—others tend to believe that if only you have intellectual insight then you have everything, and they also do not expect great things. The need of both groups respectively is the realisation that we need this visitation from on high, this outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Without this the present situation, although it may display a measure of progress in this direction and that, will be lacking in the one thing which to me is essential.
J.E.D.: It is during your ministry, in fact, that a generation of believers who have rediscovered the evangelical faith has arisen in Wales, and indeed throughout Britain and further afield. And this new understanding of the faith, both intellectually and in experience, and the outworking of its implications, has been a process which has taken time. It seems that we all of us had expected revival to follow immediately after that initial period when this was happening to many of us. But it is clear by now that the blessing was postponed, and that we have had to pay close attention to certain doctrines, which are relevant to the gospel certainly, and which specially pertain to the welfare of God's people in the world. Would you agree that the interest shown by evangelicals in the doctrine of the church, for instance, is something needful and important in our day?
Dr. D.M.L-J: Well yes, I fully agree, of course, and I believe that history bears this out. We have given great attention to the doctrine of the church, and this happens of necessity. When people become partakers of new spiritual life and become interested in the doctrine, they want fellowship, they want to form a society. And this then raises the question, What is the Church? The tendency was to regard any collection of religious people as a Christian church. But it is evident to the believer that this is not true—that the church is a fellowship of saints. And therefore we have been tackling the problem, and it is a complex problem of course. The Methodist Fathers faced this problem before our time. We have been thinking during this last year about Howell Harris and these societies and so on. And even before their time the problem was the same. Martin Luther had to wrestle with it. True believers feel that they are a people set apart from those who have nothing but tradition or something in which they have been reared and nurtured. Now they do not want to separate themselves; and yet, if they are to discuss spiritual problems and share spiritual experiences they have to meet with people who understand such things. And, therefore, in the end it is the problem of the church—what is a Christian church? And, of course, this is linked with the matter of revival, because, in the first place, revival is something that starts in a church and amongst believers. It is a central problem therefore. And the Ecumenical Movement, of course, has forced us to pay attention to this question. Generally speaking, the ecumenical attitude is to say that the present institutions should be brought together and made one. But the evangelical begins from another standpoint with his own idea of a church, namely a fellowship of believers. His problem is to get the saints together. And so a cleavage of opinion of necessity occurs here. The evangelical Christian cannot be content with these ecumenical ideas because they leave out what to him is essential. Therefore I believe that these last years have been of great profit to us, and if revival should come, well then, we shall have churches ready for that revival. We shall be in a position to receive converts and bring them into the family; the fellowships or churches or societies, as it were, will be there ready for them. And then it may be possible for us to avoid what happened in 1904 and 1905.
J.E.D.: Having given attention during these last years to the basic doctrines of the faith, doctrines concerning the church which safeguard the faith, matters concerning church government and so on, do you feel that there is ONE doctrine, or ONE great truth which demands our attention in these days? Here we are in 1975, and, in the context of this conversation, on the threshold of another quarter century: what would you say is the greatest need of God's people at this hour?
Dr. D.M.L-J: I have no hesitation in answering that question. I am convinced that the greatest need of evangelicals, and indeed everybody, is to regain an awareness of the living God. Our danger is to make much of the doctrine about Him, His attributes and so on, and to view even God in a way which is solely objective. And this to me is tragic. The first thing that we must realise is that God is a living God, a God who breaks into the life of the individual, a God who invades history, a God who sends an awakening, a God who acts and does things. I feel that this is missing above all else, and that it is essential to any real desire or hope for revival. We must all, as individuals to begin with, and then as churches, thirst for the living God, and never be satisfied until we are conscious that He is dealing with us, and doing something to us.
A cause for surprise is that this should be lacking in Wales of all places—the land of revivals! This is our past. I feel that we have lost the emphasis on the heart and the affections. We have become over-intellectual. Of course we must have the mind, but it seems to me that our hymnology and tradition all show that the heart should have the central place. This is what was emphasised by Williams of Pantycelyn. I do not want to give the impression that I am speaking of mysticisms, but the mystical element has been very prominent in our past as Welsh Christians. And it is essential that we should regain this, realising that without this we shall never see great things happening in our midst. And so the important thing is this: not the intellect only but coming to experience and know the living God, the God who moves and stirs a man, and even takes him out of himself and makes him sing and rejoice. This joy has disappeared. We must have it back.
J.E.D.: There are two aspects, are there not, to a period of spiritual revival. There is the experiential aspect that you have just dealt with, when believers rejoice. There is another aspect. The Holy Spirit during these times works in a powerful and very general way on the hearts of unbelievers, and whole districts are affected by the divine visitation. Would you expect a period of blessing of this nature to have an effect on preaching and on preachers? Preaching, as such, in our day has lost much of its appeal, and the office of a minister has been greatly denigrated. Would you comment on this aspect?
Dr. D.M.L-J: Certainly, but I would not put it that way, that all this has to have an influence on preachers. I would put it the other way. You will not get the things I mentioned until something has happened to the preachers. The present state of things is a reflection of a defect in the preachers; it is great preaching that produces great believers and great listeners and congregations who rejoice. I heard of a preacher only the other Sunday. In the act of preaching he stopped and asked the congregation: 'Why are you not shouting?' The man did not realise he was condemning himself. When a man preaches under the influence of the Holy Spirit he does not ask people to shout—he tries to hinder them from doing so. The congregation is stirred by great preaching. And that is what happened in the great revivals. It is something that happens first of all to one preacher, or a minister, or a man like Howell Harris, and as a result of this great experience he is constrained to give it expression, and so he preaches. And therefore, to me, this is the saddest thing of all in our present condition— the lack of preachers. This is the greatest problem, it seems to me—why do we not have great preachers in these days? I believe we have traced the explanation in what we have been discussing. Our danger all the time is to be satisfied with one side of the matter, and especially to forget the living God who gives a strong and powerful experience to the man himself. There is little hope for the people or for the churches until the preachers themselves have been set on fire and are full of this joy. This is the order, I would think. It is exceptional for this to start in the congregation and then spread to the preacher. The preacher first, then the congregation. The congregation mirrors the condition of the preacher, and therefore I would start with the preacher himself.
J.E.D.: May I ask a very personal question at the close? Would you yourself be disappointed if you should end your days without having seen a season of powerful revival?
Dr. D.M.L-J: Well, as I mentioned at the beginning, this has been my great desire all along. Ever since we had an Association meeting in Llangeitho in 1913 to celebrate the bi-centenary of the birth of Daniel Rowland, I got some idea, especially through the preaching on the 'maes' in that Association, of what a powerful revival would be like. And I have been reading about these things all my life ever since, and this is what I have been waiting for and expecting. I would give the whole world to experience it. I know perfectly well that if this is not my lot there still remains the glory and the eternal blessedness. But I would like to have tasted a little of heaven on earth first. These things are as possible in the twentieth century as they were in the first century. Many have come to believe—'Oh well, revival is something that belongs to the past; we have too much education and culture now'—this sophistication. To me, this is sheer nonsense, because it is God who acts, and I still hope to see something of these mighty acts as in the days of old.